When it comes to connections, USB 2.0 has ruled the roost for years. Firewire, despite its superior specs when it comes to audio, has failed to gain a real foothold in the world of DJ audio interfaces; the ubiquitous nature of the USB port has dictated the decisions of the market. USB 3.0 was quietly released to little aplomb more than a year ago, and Apple recently showed off the inclusion of an entirely new technology inside their latest MacBook Pros: Thunderbolt. Is your audio interface still safe, and for how long? Are there any more opportunities provided by these new technologies?
SPEED
Speed wasn’t the trump card when it came to USB2 and Firewire – but this chart shows just how much faster USB3 and Thunderbolt are than current generation interfaces. There’s another speed advantage that the new technologies have over USB2, and that’s full duplex data transfer – information can be sent and received at the same time, and that leads to a much more stable data signal, cutting down your audio’s propensity to glitch and stutter. Thunderbolt is capable of transferring data at 10Gbps, double that of USB3, but even USB3 is over ten times as fast as USB2 – opening the doors to multiple channels of super high bandwidth and low latency audio.
COMPATIBILITY
With USB3 being backwards compatible with old USB devices, even using the same connector, it would appear on first glance that there’s a clear advantage for USB3. Computer manufacturers can begin to integrate USB3 into their systems without people even noticing, providing future proofing power here and now… but of course, it’s not that simple. The colossal pairing of Intel and Apple, the two teams behind Thunderbolt, mean the rulebook might just be thrown out down the line as Intel’s presumable desire to protect their investment may lead to a reluctance to include USB3 support in their chipsets straight away, and indeed we’ve seen Apple introduce Thunderbolt but not USB3 on the new MacBook Pros – and it’s a fairly safe bet to assume they’ll make it onto other Mac products (and maybe before too long iPad) in forthcoming revisions.
MORE THAN JUST A NAME
There’s more to Thunderbolt than the cool name and the speed, too. Thunderbolt is, essentially, the bundling of two protocols into a single cable: DisplayPort and PCI Express. PCIe is the protocol that fast internal connections inside your computer’s case use, and so being at the very top of the hierarchy means that a Thunderbolt connection is simply an adapter away from turning into a USB3 socket. When I say turn into, though, I mean provide in addition; Thunderbolt provides true daisy-chain capability for up to six devices, so a single port is capable of being the portal for a display, audio interface, a couple of high resolution controllers, an external drive and a USB3 port for a portable storage device. Each taking bandwidth as they need it (and if each were equal they’d still be capable of over three times the maximum speed of USB2!).
THE FUTURE
What does this mean for the future? In the short term, it’s probably USB3 that’s going to get most of the love from all but the most high end of audio and video products. Until the market catches up and demand for the sheer grunt of Thunderbolt increases, its increased cost compared to USB3 and need for an adapter to be backwards compatible will probably mean it places in the same kind of markets FireWire800 does now. In the future, though, as computers get smaller and power increases – from the MacBook Air and the array of netbooks available to the iPad and other tablets – they will inevitably lose space for their physical connections, and a single port where the devices themselves can act as the hub will be ideal. One day soon, being able to do everything from HD video VJing to four, six, or even eight channel 48/192 DJing on the same tablet you use to browse the internet from your sofa, will be a simple cable away.
WHAT ABOUT NOW?
As for right now, your investments are safe for a while yet. The technology is here, but we’re still some way from seeing products that use the kind of bandwidth that these new technologies provide, and considering both new technologies provide backwards compatibility with current hardware in one way or another you don’t need to worry about your prized possessions becoming worthless any time soon – just look forward to the brave new world that USB3 and Thunderbolt will help to bring forth.
[…] bandwidth of FireWire 800); you can daisy-chain up to six devices; and it can provide bus power (more background on USB 3 and Thunderbolt here). Thunderbolt’s massive bandwidth clearly sets it apart the most; if you’re working with […]
[…] bandwidth of FireWire 800); you can daisy-chain up to six devices; and it can provide bus power (more background on USB 3 and Thunderbolt here). Thunderbolt’s massive bandwidth clearly sets it apart the most; if you’re working with […]
[…] bandwidth of FireWire 800); you can daisy-chain up to six devices; and it can provide bus power (more background on USB 3 and Thunderbolt here). Thunderbolt’s massive bandwidth clearly sets it apart the most; if you’re working with […]
USB 3.0 has been a disaster for almost all DJ soundcards! I like so many people have bought a new Windows laptop with only USB 3.0 ports, only to find that all USB 2.0 soundcards (NI, Numark etc. etc.) WILL NOT work with USB 3.0 ports. Intel etc. aren’t releasing new drivers any time soon, the soundcard manufacturers won’t release new PC USB 3.0 compatible drivers (they have for Macs). Some people have had success with plugging in USB 2.0 hubs or tricky uninstalls of USB 3.0 drivers so ports work as USB 2.0 (not working smoothly for me at the moment) but it’s a real nightmare. This is a huge problem and a quick search of forums shows how much of a problem it really is: http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173508
http://forum.notebookreview.com/alienware-m14x/664553-m14x-r2-usb-3-0-drivers-incompatible-native-instruments-products.html
http://community.numark.com/numark/topics/is_there_a_fix_for_the_dj_io_and_usb_3_0_incompatibility
No disrespect but you are over a year behind ! There’s a thing called Google and surprisingly all these issues have been dealt with in one way or another. ALL the NI soundcards work with USB3 under windows 8, half of them work under windows 7. The MAC issue has been dealt with and is working fine under 10.8 ….. There’s no-one on the planet got a USB3 to USB2 hub/replicator (they don’t exist). You can’t just disable the USB3 bit …… again sir ……… G O O G L E ! it.
Wow, thanks for your arsey comment. Saying “no disrepect” before such a comment doesn’t excuse your “There’s a thing called Google” comments. Anyway
I have googled it! 🙂 I did before I left this comment. I don’t have a NI soundcard (i have a Numark sound card) and official Numark tech support tell me:
“J.Maillet (Offical Rep)
1 month ago
You will also want to make sure that you are using a USB 2.0 input as USB 3.0 is not supported. We have had some users report success with windows 8 but at this time there are no official drivers available for windows 8.”
Furthermore all of the forum topics I found using the amazing G O O G L E (as you so helpfully spelled out for me), they indicated that there was still a problem with NI sound cards (for non-Mac laptop users with only USB 3.0 ports)! That’s great for people with NI cards if all of them are no 100% consistently working with USB 3.0 ports.
And finally I managed to get mine to work by disabling the USB 3.0 drivers so all in all, thanks for taking the time to reply to my comment but it appears your info is also slightly out of date 🙂
and looks like not everyone’s solved their NI soundcard/controller – USB 3.0 problems… http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=173508&page=9
i had written a really long reply with all the correct information about USB3 …but deleted it, you obviously know so much more than me …I should perhaps stop supporting Renasys and Intel and my collegues here should stop writing the USB3 windows 8 drivers …you’ll see who I am if you actually read the forum clips you’ve tagged on.
Trolling isn’t nice ….and posting random clips of foum posts to support your arguement is even worse, especailly when in those posts all the answers have been given already.
As you are dealing with Numark I suggest you continue to do so … and stop bitching about on a forum posting thats a year old.
Oh dear, this is the danger with people not being able to read tone of written stuff online.
I love DJ Tech Tools, it’s my favourite website for DJ stuff. I wanted to share my thoughts on a relevant article on here and se if anyone had suggestions.o
I didn’t ask u to comment!! Oh well! 🙂
What with the criticism i think this site content is fair and good. vi nu
Roseann Marcelynas
http://vienne.co/vi-nu
http://vienne.co/vi-nu
HEy! this was posted on A-Trak’s blog! very exciting exposure for you guys! 😀
HEy! this was posted on A-Trak’s blog! very exciting exposure for you guys! 😀
HEy! this was posted on A-Trak’s blog! very exciting exposure for you guys! 😀
HEy! this was posted on A-Trak’s blog! very exciting exposure for you guys! 😀
Will fibre optic really reduce latency on a 30cm cable? I think the difference will be negligible. The biggest problem is the architecture of a computer. The best way to reduce latency is to have all the processes made between CPU and Cache. So any input from an external device has to be routed to the CPU or cache in as least amount of steps possible. Your tracks have to small enough to be stored in the cache because that’s the best and quickest access point for the CPU to do what you want it to do..
So it doesn’t matter whether you use SSD, SATA, IDE , DDR, SDRAM and even good old EDO (remember the days?). It’s all slow compared to the CPU having the right info at its fingertips.
The computer in very basic form:
You’re the CPU and you’re working at a desk.
The item in your hand is the level 1 Cache.
The items on your desk is the level 2 Cache.
When you access the RAM it’s equivalent to standing up, running to the filing cabinet 5 metres away on the other side of the room, finding the folder, and bringing each individual piece of paper back and forth to process it.
If you have to use the hard-drive it’s like running to the store room 50m away and retrieving your documents.
Of course you can take a filing tray on your desk (level 2 cache) and store it in the filing cabinet (RAM) or the store room (HDD) but as soon as you need it again, you’re doing more running. It’s no wonder a CPU burns up unless it has a fan cooling it down with all that running around.
If I’m playing a 9MB track which should be stored in RAM, why does it hang if I accidentally disconnect my Firewire HHD? The only reason I can find is that not all of the song is stored where it should be.
So the real answer to lower latency is smaller files, less memory hungry programs and optimisation of Cache and RAM by DJ software developers.
Will fibre optic really reduce latency on a 30cm cable? I think the difference will be negligible. The biggest problem is the architecture of a computer. The best way to reduce latency is to have all the processes made between CPU and Cache. So any input from an external device has to be routed to the CPU or cache in as least amount of steps possible. Your tracks have to small enough to be stored in the cache because that’s the best and quickest access point for the CPU to do what you want it to do..
So it doesn’t matter whether you use SSD, SATA, IDE , DDR, SDRAM and even good old EDO (remember the days?). It’s all slow compared to the CPU having the right info at its fingertips.
The computer in very basic form:
You’re the CPU and you’re working at a desk.
The item in your hand is the level 1 Cache.
The items on your desk is the level 2 Cache.
When you access the RAM it’s equivalent to standing up, running to the filing cabinet 5 metres away on the other side of the room, finding the folder, and bringing each individual piece of paper back and forth to process it.
If you have to use the hard-drive it’s like running to the store room 50m away and retrieving your documents.
Of course you can take a filing tray on your desk (level 2 cache) and store it in the filing cabinet (RAM) or the store room (HDD) but as soon as you need it again, you’re doing more running. It’s no wonder a CPU burns up unless it has a fan cooling it down with all that running around.
If I’m playing a 9MB track which should be stored in RAM, why does it hang if I accidentally disconnect my Firewire HHD? The only reason I can find is that not all of the song is stored where it should be.
So the real answer to lower latency is smaller files, less memory hungry programs and optimisation of Cache and RAM by DJ software developers.
You forgot a step. If you are getting from the hdd you will probably swap out from memory so you will need to take the info from 50m and place it at some point 5m away and take the info you removed from there back to the store room to make the space for the stuff 5m away
appreciate the article, as always!
just one question:
why do all you dorks flooding the comments hate everybody?
(maybe ask your moms)
appreciate the article, as always!
just one question:
why do all you dorks flooding the comments hate everybody?
(maybe ask your moms)
What few people seem to grasp is that Thunderbolt is an all-encompassing idea, that would allow you to connect pretty much anything to a hub and power it as well – it’s supposoed to be capable of putting 20 watts out there. Try and think of a box with an HDMI, USB 3 and FW all going into a single computer port. How’s that for backwards compatible?
Future looks bright.
no matter how fast or kreat the new protocol is, the underpaid chinese factories are gonn implement something wrong.
lol are you guys djs or nerds?!?! 2.0 works fine…how much faster does it need to go? The more shit you nerds attach to a computer the worse shit is gonna get. Laptop are designed to be compact not super computers. For you shitty bedroom djs…go to your local computer build yourself a smoking desktop and stop bitching about the speed of USB and make some fucking hott hits and sets.
Hi there…i own 2 cdj’s 400 and a djm 400 and also using traktor. Can please anyone tell me how to see the tracks from traktor onto the cdj’s without using any interface or controller please !! =))
Thanks
Thunderbolt can only daisy chains 6 devices where as usb 2.0 can daisy chain 127, and firewire can do 63. I am sure that usb 3.0 will do at least the same as usb 2.0.
i just don’t understand why everyone keeps looking for a single port to do all….. we are dealing with copper and the solution has been there for years….. ethernet, we have been able to trasmit 10 gig over ethernet for years, why doesnt everything just have an ethernet connector? The RJ45 connector hasn’t changed in decades, but the speed has. This just seems like another firewire 400, whatever happened to that, apple invented in then discontinued it, why because consumers dont need it… and they failed to realize that pro-sumers did need it, but they are there to make money, not to keep us happy…. i love apple and am a die hard power user of their products, but sometime they just piss me off…. usb 3, thunder bolt, whats next, usb 4 and lightning bolt, sounds like marketing shit to me and not a true innovative answers to the problem… stop making us waste our money.
i just don’t understand why everyone keeps looking for a single port to do all….. we are dealing with copper and the solution has been there for years….. ethernet, we have been able to trasmit 10 gig over ethernet for years, why doesnt everything just have an ethernet connector? The RJ45 connector hasn’t changed in decades, but the speed has. This just seems like another firewire 400, whatever happened to that, apple invented in then discontinued it, why because consumers dont need it… and they failed to realize that pro-sumers did need it, but they are there to make money, not to keep us happy…. i love apple and am a die hard power user of their products, but sometime they just piss me off…. usb 3, thunder bolt, whats next, usb 4 and lightning bolt, sounds like marketing shit to me and not a true innovative answers to the problem… stop making us waste our money.
You can’t transmit very much power over ethernet… however that is totally muted by the fact that things like the s4 have an external power adapter. As far as your comment about copper: The idea behind lightspeed is just that… it was originally designed to use fiber optic cables but they weren’t able to totally finish by the time usb3 was out so they gave it a half ass release with copper. They expect to release the new cables (full fiber) within 2 years.
I run 42″ LCD video walls from planar via cat6, it transmits 1080p data and power over standard cat6 with rj45 connector… up to a hundred feet…. im not saying that the ethernet on your PC is power ready, but the technology is there… lets adapt it to the laptop world…. and yes i am all for everything eventually being fiber… but ethernet can be affordable tomorrow… fiber cannot
you can transmit 48V DC on ethernet (enough to power a powered microphone).
USB 3 on my XPSL701x and some other manufactures machines that use the NEC/Renasis chipset don’t actually work with any of the NI or Denon products on the market right now. Dell isn’t bothered and NI say it’s not there problem.
Dont know if you’ve ever been involved in the lighting side of things at the clubs Bryan, but ethernet has been part of the line-up for years. These days, all our desks/controllers have ethernet, and so do most of the top end lights and dimmers.
We can even go wireless if we need to! It’s an amazing versatile standard, way better than the old DMX.
Still cant see why sound is STILL analogue…
Dont know if you’ve ever been involved in the lighting side of things at the clubs Bryan, but ethernet has been part of the line-up for years. These days, all our desks/controllers have ethernet, and so do most of the top end lights and dimmers.
We can even go wireless if we need to! It’s an amazing versatile standard, way better than the old DMX.
Still cant see why sound is STILL analogue…
Dont know if you’ve ever been involved in the lighting side of things at the clubs Bryan, but ethernet has been part of the line-up for years. These days, all our desks/controllers have ethernet, and so do most of the top end lights and dimmers.
We can even go wireless if we need to! It’s an amazing versatile standard, way better than the old DMX.
Still cant see why sound is STILL analogue…
Dont know if you’ve ever been involved in the lighting side of things at the clubs Bryan, but ethernet has been part of the line-up for years. These days, all our desks/controllers have ethernet, and so do most of the top end lights and dimmers.
We can even go wireless if we need to! It’s an amazing versatile standard, way better than the old DMX.
Still cant see why sound is STILL analogue…
the 5GBps for USB 3.0 and 10 GBps for thunderbolt are in optimal conditions. (sending only 0’s or 1’s)
In real life data transfer via USB 3.0 is only 3 times faster than 2.0.
My USB 3.0 external harddrive isnt nearly as fast as 5 GBps.
I know speed for a hard disc is alot more than the usb cord. but still.
the 5GBps for USB 3.0 and 10 GBps for thunderbolt are in optimal conditions. (sending only 0’s or 1’s)
In real life data transfer via USB 3.0 is only 3 times faster than 2.0.
My USB 3.0 external harddrive isnt nearly as fast as 5 GBps.
I know speed for a hard disc is alot more than the usb cord. but still.
True it relies on optimal conditions but also comes back to the saying “a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link”. Basically saying everything has to be usb3. The device the cable the card/interface an then you chooser and OS would have to support it. Otherwise you’re probably only going to get USB2 speeds. Just a thought.
True it relies on optimal conditions but also comes back to the saying “a chain is only as strong as it’s weakest link”. Basically saying everything has to be usb3. The device the cable the card/interface an then you chooser and OS would have to support it. Otherwise you’re probably only going to get USB2 speeds. Just a thought.
REMEMBER, Thunderbolt is RUNNING at BITS, not BYTES!!!
REMEMBER, Thunderbolt is RUNNING at BITS, not BYTES!!!
@Forsue
for the thin IT/computer knowledge here, there’s almost null Audio/sound-processing knowledge in most all IT/Computer sites.
They still believe Core Duo tech solved all bandwith/latency issues in the audio world, and they swear by numbers that USB2 or firewire 400 is way, way ahead any of our calculable processing needs.
If you can point any site that combine both audio & IT wisdom in depth, just let us know, please.
On this article title question…
Just add to Thunderbolt/USB3/SATA3 the following tendencies NOW happening:
-Increasing web transmission speeds
-increasing SSD storage capacities (and its close to zero latencies)
-Reduction in nm of Chip sizes and electrical consumption while growing its capacities
-Reduction of above prices
-Improvement of Signal to Noise ratios and Distortion reduction in Audio Amplification systems, and lately on exponential growth at DJ gear.
As result -to answer the above question- it will mean…
The death of MP3s in the DJ world!!
I’d say complete replacement in five years, if not earlier, as there are some cues already pointing it.
It’ll be a breeze carrying loads of 24bits 96kHz multichannel music.
And its controling gear..I can imagine it already 😀
@Forsue
for the thin IT/computer knowledge here, there’s almost null Audio/sound-processing knowledge in most all IT/Computer sites.
They still believe Core Duo tech solved all bandwith/latency issues in the audio world, and they swear by numbers that USB2 or firewire 400 is way, way ahead any of our calculable processing needs.
If you can point any site that combine both audio & IT wisdom in depth, just let us know, please.
On this article title question…
Just add to Thunderbolt/USB3/SATA3 the following tendencies NOW happening:
-Increasing web transmission speeds
-increasing SSD storage capacities (and its close to zero latencies)
-Reduction in nm of Chip sizes and electrical consumption while growing its capacities
-Reduction of above prices
-Improvement of Signal to Noise ratios and Distortion reduction in Audio Amplification systems, and lately on exponential growth at DJ gear.
As result -to answer the above question- it will mean…
The death of MP3s in the DJ world!!
I’d say complete replacement in five years, if not earlier, as there are some cues already pointing it.
It’ll be a breeze carrying loads of 24bits 96kHz multichannel music.
And its controling gear..I can imagine it already 😀
Can’t imagine when connections between audio equipment will become wireless (may be closer than you think). The possibilities from a performance standpoint could be limitless!
Can’t imagine when connections between audio equipment will become wireless (may be closer than you think). The possibilities from a performance standpoint could be limitless!
how does all this compare to Gigabit Ethernet, the protocol for which all the new Focusrite RedNet gear is based?
how does all this compare to Gigabit Ethernet, the protocol for which all the new Focusrite RedNet gear is based?
Thunderbolt, is looking real good. I hope it catches fire. It sounds like a good Tesla’ s Idea!
Thunderbolt, is looking real good. I hope it catches fire. It sounds like a good Tesla’ s Idea!
I give up reading this site. Anything even remotely computer/IT technical is just so thin and full of no-info and a demonstrated lack of insight into these technologies.
Is this some SEO campaign on Thunderbolt or something???
As for the comments “QA” has hit the nail on the head and “Tombruton87” has been listening to too many ‘computer gurus’.
I give up reading this site. Anything even remotely computer/IT technical is just so thin and full of no-info and a demonstrated lack of insight into these technologies.
Is this some SEO campaign on Thunderbolt or something???
As for the comments “QA” has hit the nail on the head and “Tombruton87” has been listening to too many ‘computer gurus’.
I am sorry we let you down. In the future, we will try to get greater insight into the technology discussed. As to this article, it was not meant to dive too deeply into the details but give an aver-view of what thunderbolt is and could mean for digital djs.
I am sorry we let you down. In the future, we will try to get greater insight into the technology discussed. As to this article, it was not meant to dive too deeply into the details but give an aver-view of what thunderbolt is and could mean for digital djs.
I’ve only been reading this site for a couple weeks now but is there a reason there are so many trolls?
He gave a completely reasonable overview of the technologies for an audience that is tech savvy but not necessarily tech-professional level.
What more do you want? A discussion of the freaking specs line by line?
I’ve only been reading this site for a couple weeks now but is there a reason there are so many trolls?
He gave a completely reasonable overview of the technologies for an audience that is tech savvy but not necessarily tech-professional level.
What more do you want? A discussion of the freaking specs line by line?
Usb3 is cool but when I told my video friends about thunderbolt there jaws hit the floor, it’s really going to change things for the editing video media industry, especially now everything is in HD.
For my needs the biggest thing I hate about usb is one of simplest things I love about firewire. Hubs suck! 99% of them are cheap and nasty and it’s just another bloody plug to find in the booth! Daisy chaining firewire devices is brilliant so am I glad that thunderbolt are continuing down that avenue. Pretty obvious USB3 will be the most popular to the mass’s, but I reckon Thunderbolt will still have a very firm foot hold in the proffesional arena even despite the fact there will be less Thunderbolt devices.
Hell there’s know reason why we won’t be seeing Thunderbolt to USB3 adapter’s,
I love nem0nic breakout box idea and I think ideas like that is key to what Thunderbolt really means, it’s the one all to own all connection, Just like the new Apple Intel partnership, THE one and all uber pairing!
Usb3 is cool but when I told my video friends about thunderbolt there jaws hit the floor, it’s really going to change things for the editing video media industry, especially now everything is in HD.
For my needs the biggest thing I hate about usb is one of simplest things I love about firewire. Hubs suck! 99% of them are cheap and nasty and it’s just another bloody plug to find in the booth! Daisy chaining firewire devices is brilliant so am I glad that thunderbolt are continuing down that avenue. Pretty obvious USB3 will be the most popular to the mass’s, but I reckon Thunderbolt will still have a very firm foot hold in the proffesional arena even despite the fact there will be less Thunderbolt devices.
Hell there’s know reason why we won’t be seeing Thunderbolt to USB3 adapter’s,
I love nem0nic breakout box idea and I think ideas like that is key to what Thunderbolt really means, it’s the one all to own all connection, Just like the new Apple Intel partnership, THE one and all uber pairing!
just in case…
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aplomb
just in case…
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aplomb
Oh no! Let’s pretend that I wrote ‘with little aplomb’, okay?!
Oh no! Let’s pretend that I wrote ‘with little aplomb’, okay?!
Oh no! Let’s pretend that I wrote ‘with little aplomb’, okay?!
Oh no! Let’s pretend that I wrote ‘with little aplomb’, okay?!
Thunderbolt all the way. For a VJ this will be a godsend
if i can hook up 4 projectors on one bus. I don’t ever intend
to not have an Apple computer, so my mind is set.
Thunderbolt all the way. For a VJ this will be a godsend
if i can hook up 4 projectors on one bus. I don’t ever intend
to not have an Apple computer, so my mind is set.
This was pretty useless. Audio doesn’t need more SPEED, it’s LOW LATENCY that we’re missing. The article didn’t discuss the bases of latency at all, no info on where the new interfaces stand on it.
Not everyone may realise it, but bandwidth and latency are not interconnected. As a practical example, USB 2.0 has many times the bandwidth of USB 1.1, but identical achievable latency in audio applications. Firewire is better, but all these interfaces add latency compared to a PCI or PCIe connected audio device. If USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt bring the achievable latency closer to PCI, good, but we know nothing based on this article.
This was pretty useless. Audio doesn’t need more SPEED, it’s LOW LATENCY that we’re missing. The article didn’t discuss the bases of latency at all, no info on where the new interfaces stand on it.
Not everyone may realise it, but bandwidth and latency are not interconnected. As a practical example, USB 2.0 has many times the bandwidth of USB 1.1, but identical achievable latency in audio applications. Firewire is better, but all these interfaces add latency compared to a PCI or PCIe connected audio device. If USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt bring the achievable latency closer to PCI, good, but we know nothing based on this article.
firewire has lower latency because its hardware based. thunderbolt is hardware based. i personally think any improvment on 5ms is not going to make any differnce. latency can be improved by better programming
firewire has lower latency because its hardware based. thunderbolt is hardware based. i personally think any improvment on 5ms is not going to make any differnce. latency can be improved by better programming
QA, Thunderbolt *is* a combination of PCIe and DisplayPort (as mentioned). It’s a cable that externalises a PCI Express connection – currently spec’d at 4x, but it has futureproofing built in, from what I understand. Another bonus to both USB3 and FireWire from a latency perspective is the full duplex nature. You’re absolutely right when stating that just because bandwidth is higher the latency won’t automatically reduce, though, and looking at latency, from what it is to how to reduce and the feasible future developments, is something for the near future 🙂
Chris, you’re right – they did mention that in the article.
The concept sounds good, but I am wondering about two things. First, will they have to add wait states into the protocol to account for longer conductors (ie. the cable), effectively bumping up latency, while admittedly leaving bandwidth intact. And second, will it ever take off as an interface for audio… as the article said, it’s more likely we’ll be stuck with USB because it will be more widespread.
As for the latency with USB 3.0, I guess we’ll see soon enough. So far, the designers have favoured bandwidth over latency since that’s what most applications are after…
Chris, you’re right – they did mention that in the article.
The concept sounds good, but I am wondering about two things. First, will they have to add wait states into the protocol to account for longer conductors (ie. the cable), effectively bumping up latency, while admittedly leaving bandwidth intact. And second, will it ever take off as an interface for audio… as the article said, it’s more likely we’ll be stuck with USB because it will be more widespread.
As for the latency with USB 3.0, I guess we’ll see soon enough. So far, the designers have favoured bandwidth over latency since that’s what most applications are after…
QA, Thunderbolt *is* a combination of PCIe and DisplayPort (as mentioned). It’s a cable that externalises a PCI Express connection – currently spec’d at 4x, but it has futureproofing built in, from what I understand. Another bonus to both USB3 and FireWire from a latency perspective is the full duplex nature. You’re absolutely right when stating that just because bandwidth is higher the latency won’t automatically reduce, though, and looking at latency, from what it is to how to reduce and the feasible future developments, is something for the near future 🙂
tw my goal is a fail.. i was lookin for wireless usb possibly at this level usb3, anyone know if wireless usb exists, not bluetooth or installed gear just chordless connection between two instruments that dont have a wireless bandwidth
I like the idea of fast is better but it’s starting to kill my pockets. How much money do I need to stay up to date, I bought traktor audio 8 and the 10 comes out and there is not much of a gap in time for me to say my 8 is old news not let’s get the ten…
I like to see upgrade that don’t cost much or nothing at all
I like the idea of fast is better but it’s starting to kill my pockets. How much money do I need to stay up to date, I bought traktor audio 8 and the 10 comes out and there is not much of a gap in time for me to say my 8 is old news not let’s get the ten…
I like to see upgrade that don’t cost much or nothing at all
As far as my thinking goes. Like not everyone has an express slot for an expansion card. Or the money to upgrade. Why not use Cat5 and have the audio over that like when connecting 4 CDJ? I think thats the way we should be going.
As far as my thinking goes. Like not everyone has an express slot for an expansion card. Or the money to upgrade. Why not use Cat5 and have the audio over that like when connecting 4 CDJ? I think thats the way we should be going.
if you go that way you cant charge money for new protocols. oh other isssue is power
if you go that way you cant charge money for new protocols. oh other isssue is power
That would be a rather interesting setup. But wouldn’t that still mean having a switch or hub installed in your case and just more hardware to lug around? The idea sounds good though.
That would be a rather interesting setup. But wouldn’t that still mean having a switch or hub installed in your case and just more hardware to lug around? The idea sounds good though.
im with you, as my post says below, its been here for years…. the connector never changed and was always backward compatible… ethernet
im with you, as my post says below, its been here for years…. the connector never changed and was always backward compatible… ethernet
Hope they go ahead with Thunderbolt rather than USB3, simply because if there is a higher speed protocol, why stick to slower ones?
Hope they go ahead with Thunderbolt rather than USB3, simply because if there is a higher speed protocol, why stick to slower ones?
I think there will be room for both. I personally think Thunderbolt can only really move in as mainstream if PCs catch on to it. I remember with Firewire all the Mac-heads were praising it, and I admit it worked nicely when I had a Firewire port on my Toshiba laptop (I’m a PC guy). Unfortunately though, more “normal people” went USB and it slowly made Firewire die out.
Same deal here. If PC laptop makers come up with quality laptops with Thunderbolt AND the top gear manufacturers go Thunderbolt, then it’ll catch on. If we see perhaps Serato jump on Thunderbolt and Traktor stay on USB3, plus PC laptops stay on USB and not go Thunderbolt, then I’m afraid it’ll become a specialty product, or die out.
Now I know someone’s going to jump in and praise Macbooks and try to sound like any DJ who stays on Windows isn’t for real or isn’t being realistic…but look at the total numbers in computers for market share, and even how many out there on the boards show they’re using PCs. They’re not going away, so the way to make TB the standard is to think long term and get setups outside of Apple to use it.
I think there will be room for both. I personally think Thunderbolt can only really move in as mainstream if PCs catch on to it. I remember with Firewire all the Mac-heads were praising it, and I admit it worked nicely when I had a Firewire port on my Toshiba laptop (I’m a PC guy). Unfortunately though, more “normal people” went USB and it slowly made Firewire die out.
Same deal here. If PC laptop makers come up with quality laptops with Thunderbolt AND the top gear manufacturers go Thunderbolt, then it’ll catch on. If we see perhaps Serato jump on Thunderbolt and Traktor stay on USB3, plus PC laptops stay on USB and not go Thunderbolt, then I’m afraid it’ll become a specialty product, or die out.
Now I know someone’s going to jump in and praise Macbooks and try to sound like any DJ who stays on Windows isn’t for real or isn’t being realistic…but look at the total numbers in computers for market share, and even how many out there on the boards show they’re using PCs. They’re not going away, so the way to make TB the standard is to think long term and get setups outside of Apple to use it.
I’d assume USB 3.0 will be the first that becomes industry stardard considering how many desktop mobos already have it. But the advantages of thunderbolt are undeniable, couple that with Intels market sway and I’d say thunderbolt will be showing up on dj gear in the next two years. And yeah, I bet there will be a coexistence with computer accessories in general.
I’d assume USB 3.0 will be the first that becomes industry stardard considering how many desktop mobos already have it. But the advantages of thunderbolt are undeniable, couple that with Intels market sway and I’d say thunderbolt will be showing up on dj gear in the next two years. And yeah, I bet there will be a coexistence with computer accessories in general.
I think the convenience of USB at this point outweighs new technology for many years to come. USB3 will likely be the winner over Thunderbolt in the long run.
I think the convenience of USB at this point outweighs new technology for many years to come. USB3 will likely be the winner over Thunderbolt in the long run.
Apogee have already started working on thunderbolt interfaces and I heard a couple of hard drive manufacturers including Lacie are doing the same thing. As it seems to be replacing FireWire, which I really like, I hope it catches on – USB’s two main aims always seem to be “cheap” and “universal” rather than best performance, hence my FW400 port run rings around my supposedly 480Mbps USB 2.0 (data transfer, latency and bus powering devices). Also, if thunderbolt can act like hub for other devices including USB and cancel the need for annoying powered USB hubs, then bring it on!
Apogee have already started working on thunderbolt interfaces and I heard a couple of hard drive manufacturers including Lacie are doing the same thing. As it seems to be replacing FireWire, which I really like, I hope it catches on – USB’s two main aims always seem to be “cheap” and “universal” rather than best performance, hence my FW400 port run rings around my supposedly 480Mbps USB 2.0 (data transfer, latency and bus powering devices). Also, if thunderbolt can act like hub for other devices including USB and cancel the need for annoying powered USB hubs, then bring it on!
Of course Apogee was gonna get on board. Their products rely HEAVILY with intergration with Mac/Logic. Maybe since they work so closely together they will be the first to put out a Thunderbolt equipped I/O box for DJ’s. I think this is already in the making. Love him or hate him, Steve Jobs and his team think 5 years ahead of everybody else. Remember what happened the last time he thought he was on “short-time”. I think this is just the beginning of a SPECTACULAR swan song for Mr. Jobs.
Yeah I know Apogee is heavily tied to Apple so it’s no big surprise. I still reckon thunderbolt could catch on quite quickly for music at least… so many DJs and producers already use Macs and I’m sure within the next year, they’ll all have thunderbolt. Just the fact that it can support and power 6 devices, including all the stuff we already own with different older connections, makes it very desirable. Both Apple and Intel are currently in a very strong position to steer the market in their direction and if it filters down to the cheaper Apple products (the pods, the pads and the phones) it could become a much more common sight on many different computers.
Yeah I know Apogee is heavily tied to Apple so it’s no big surprise. I still reckon thunderbolt could catch on quite quickly for music at least… so many DJs and producers already use Macs and I’m sure within the next year, they’ll all have thunderbolt. Just the fact that it can support and power 6 devices, including all the stuff we already own with different older connections, makes it very desirable. Both Apple and Intel are currently in a very strong position to steer the market in their direction and if it filters down to the cheaper Apple products (the pods, the pads and the phones) it could become a much more common sight on many different computers.
Of course Apogee was gonna get on board. Their products rely HEAVILY with intergration with Mac/Logic. Maybe since they work so closely together they will be the first to put out a Thunderbolt equipped I/O box for DJ’s. I think this is already in the making. Love him or hate him, Steve Jobs and his team think 5 years ahead of everybody else. Remember what happened the last time he thought he was on “short-time”. I think this is just the beginning of a SPECTACULAR swan song for Mr. Jobs.
To clear this up unlike USB you cannot hub Thunderbolt. It is a pure daisy chain so if you want more than one device on the bus you need and in port and an out port and the last port is a terminal port. It works that same as SCSI did back in the early 90’s. You are also limited to 7 devices so aside from having to build in more than one port per device if you needed to get fancy then a lot of hardware could double in cost on configuring the out port into it to allow the chain. I do not know of many people who use the so called limit of 127 USB devices but these are not daisy chained and become more flexible as a result. Having Thunderbolt will be nice but do not expect too much as the only device currently on the market is a 6 drive SATA enclosure that xost a lot of money that due to its RAID config are too fast for a Mac to use to its potential and can only achieve its hi speeds when talking to an identical device from the same manufacturer. Some motherboards for PC are already shipping with PCIe Thunderbolt add on cards that also include a network port and quality sound card.
To clear this up unlike USB you cannot hub Thunderbolt. It is a pure daisy chain so if you want more than one device on the bus you need and in port and an out port and the last port is a terminal port. It works that same as SCSI did back in the early 90’s. You are also limited to 7 devices so aside from having to build in more than one port per device if you needed to get fancy then a lot of hardware could double in cost on configuring the out port into it to allow the chain. I do not know of many people who use the so called limit of 127 USB devices but these are not daisy chained and become more flexible as a result. Having Thunderbolt will be nice but do not expect too much as the only device currently on the market is a 6 drive SATA enclosure that xost a lot of money that due to its RAID config are too fast for a Mac to use to its potential and can only achieve its hi speeds when talking to an identical device from the same manufacturer. Some motherboards for PC are already shipping with PCIe Thunderbolt add on cards that also include a network port and quality sound card.
I’m not happy until all my gear is completely wireless. Bring me wireless electricity, NOW! 😀
Telsa!
Telsa!
we’ll all be electrocuted if we pass in between the source and the device! haha
Well, actually: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4sAzaKfbRc 🙂
we’ll all be electrocuted if we pass in between the source and the device! haha
exactly! hahah ive been posting this on facebook for a week and been reasearching ever since then thats how i got here..
btw my goal is a fail.. i was lookin for wireless usb possibly at this level usb3, anyone know if wireless usb exists, not bluetooth or installed gear just chordless connection between two instruments that dont have a wireless bandwidth
“I’m not happy until all my gear is completely higher-latency. Bring me higher-latency electricity, NOW! D:”
Not a dig at you, but understand an additional layer of software and hardware between you and things you want to be responsive is rarely ideal. Couple that with potential for interference/drop outs and it quickly becomes clear that if you want something to be reliable and responsive it needs to have a cable attached to it.
That said, Lightpeak/Thunderbolt could prove immensely useful not for the bandwidth but just having a single type of cable. Imagine if all you had to do was ensure everything was chained together and the chain ended at your computer.
Yes please, for club use anyway. The obvious problem with the bus topology is you can’t remove any of the nodes without breaking the bus. The solution is to use something point to point and all my usb devices use the same cables so…
My cheap and cheerful Dell laptop has 4 usb ports already.
I’m not happy until all my gear is completely wireless. Bring me wireless electricity, NOW! 😀
I think there’s another potential use for the Thunderbolt connector is for an I/O breakout box. How great would it be to have a small box that connects to your Mac that has a MultiTT USB hub, eSATA, card readers, and other I/O? For most DJs, I think a device like this would be much more valuable than an audio interface
I think there’s another potential use for the Thunderbolt connector is for an I/O breakout box. How great would it be to have a small box that connects to your Mac that has a MultiTT USB hub, eSATA, card readers, and other I/O? For most DJs, I think a device like this would be much more valuable than an audio interface
I like this idea. I’m so fed up with having to juggle cables and usb hubs for controllers and audio interfaces worrying if enough power’s getting to them.
I like this idea. I’m so fed up with having to juggle cables and usb hubs for controllers and audio interfaces worrying if enough power’s getting to them.
That would be great. One break out box with one cable.
That would be great. One break out box with one cable.
Limited to 7 devices
I hope they co-exist but I think Apple is as likely to include USB3 on its hardware as it is to start bundling blu-ray drives in their laptops!
I hope they co-exist but I think Apple is as likely to include USB3 on its hardware as it is to start bundling blu-ray drives in their laptops!
The next generation of Macbooks are rumored not to have ANY cd drives period. That’s so 2010 😉
The next generation of Macbooks are rumored not to have ANY cd drives period. That’s so 2010 😉
Still gonna be another few years though before it becomes an industry standard.
Are there any early adopters?
Still gonna be another few years though before it becomes an industry standard.
Are there any early adopters?
I’m a big fan of progression and think USB 2.0 has been around to long, but as cool as Thunderbolt is, I don’t know how it would work for VJs. I think that will be barrier for most DJ hardware/software companies, not wanting to clog up the only display out for most Macs. (unless they equip the hardware with a Thunderbolt out for daisy chaining)…
To be honest, I think we will see both USB and thunderbolt co-exist (just like firewire and usb 2.0), but I doubt DJ manufactures embrace it until PCs do… they want to make their products as universal as possible, and one rule in universality is to follow the lowest common denominator. So until PC manufacturers get “on board,” I doubt DJ stuff will change.
Thunderbolt would allow VJs to mix “in digital” easier as digital DJs do with Traktor/Serato/VDJ/et. al. Unless there were a wholesale move to 24 bit/96+KHz audio in the DJ world, I don’t see much need for more “bandwidth” as USB2 handles the audio-only arena just fine. (well, except for power-hungry MIDI devices plugged into USB2 ports — for info on that go look up my article from a while back — shameless plug!)
When DJ meets video is the norm for every little bar/club/event, Thunderbolt/USB3-based controllers will be a requirement to handle the data stream coming from video & audio mixing and synchronization software.
DJ Dennis
Thunderbolt would allow VJs to mix “in digital” easier as digital DJs do with Traktor/Serato/VDJ/et. al. Unless there were a wholesale move to 24 bit/96+KHz audio in the DJ world, I don’t see much need for more “bandwidth” as USB2 handles the audio-only arena just fine. (well, except for power-hungry MIDI devices plugged into USB2 ports — for info on that go look up my article from a while back — shameless plug!)
When DJ meets video is the norm for every little bar/club/event, Thunderbolt/USB3-based controllers will be a requirement to handle the data stream coming from video & audio mixing and synchronization software.
DJ Dennis
So me not having spent any money on DJ tech just yet might’ve been not that bad at all, since there seems to be a lot of stuff comming up
So me not having spent any money on DJ tech just yet might’ve been not that bad at all, since there seems to be a lot of stuff comming up
very cool where technology can go!! just as most things i.e. DVD’s took awhile to catch on, but we will be there soon! Awesome!
very cool where technology can go!! just as most things i.e. DVD’s took awhile to catch on, but we will be there soon! Awesome!
Damn, this is gonna be huge. Transfer speeds for high quality audio are pretty fuckin slow with USB 2.0, I’m glad they’re finally coming out with a better standard.
Still probably gonna have to wait another 2/3 years for it to become anywhere near mainstream in DJ tech.
Are they any early adopters in this industry?f
Damn, this is gonna be huge. Transfer speeds for high quality audio are pretty fuckin slow with USB 2.0, I’m glad they’re finally coming out with a better standard.