Sound Wars: What’s the Real Story?

Okay, so we know loud music’s cool. Not too loud, of course – there’s no point in putting your eardrums into retirement before your dancing shoes – but how is ‘loud’ actually defined? And is ‘loud’ the only thing we should be concentrating on?

Let’s see if we can wade through the minefield of technical data and nail down some simple, practical advice for how to turn things up properly, the implications of using quieter equipment, and how that gain knob affects things in real life; rather than simply believing me, I’ve also roped in the very kind assistance of some of the best brains in the game – and from different teams too. Dylan Wood, the head of R&D at Serato Audio Research R&D, and TJ Hertz, DSP developer at Native Instruments, have kindly given a few pearls of wisdom to help us make sense of it all.

WHAT’S THE POINT?

Computer based digital audio runs, almost without exception, in a ‘floating point’ environment. The ‘point’ in floating and fixed point refers to the decimal, and compared to fixed point calculations whose values are limited by the position of the decimal point remaining in the same place (so in the length of the number, which is limited by the number of bits the system operates on, the decimal point is always the same amount of digits along) across all results, the point in floating point can be placed anywhere. This has implications for the accuracy of how digital audio can be represented. TJ Hertz gave me a helpful visual example of fixed point audio:

“Think of the signals that a (fixed point) digital mixer can represent as a blank canvas divided into pixels. Let’s take an extremely lo-fi case and say that the canvas is 1024 pixels wide and tall, and that’s a direct analogy of a 10-bit fixed point system – I’m using unrealistically small numbers to illustrate a point.

If you paint a portrait of a face on this canvas, you want it to be a sensible size – say 700 pixels wide. If you paint the face too big, then the edges literally get clipped off, and that’s exactly what happens to an audio signal that’s louder than the mixer can represent. If you paint the portrait too small, say 30 pixels wide, then it starts becoming pixellated – that’s analogous to the quantization distortion that you get if you try and represent a very quiet audio signal with a fixed-point digital system.”

So, there’s a trade off between accuracy of data and the integrity of the data itself: if your ‘portrait’ is too big, something’s got to give. Compare that to floating point audio:

“A floating point signal is like painting a picture on 75% of the canvas, and then zooming or shrinking the canvas to the desired size. Therefore, if you want a tiny painting, you can still use all 4,000,000,000 pixels [at 32 bit], they’re just finer pixels. You don’t lose resolution.

It’s much easier to write algorithms in floating point because the precision is always the same, regardless of the signal level. This means that the risk of a filter or EQ going unstable is much lower, you get fewer distortion and quantization effects (for simply passing audio through, the effect is small anyway, but it becomes more important when you start doing maths), and, conveniently, you can port algorithms directly from native computer code without worrying too much about whether they will still behave the same way. The tradeoff, of course, is cost.”

THE REAL WORLD

So, floating point is the way to go for software calculations, and digital hardware is gradually starting to get in on the action too. The audio remains pristine and perfect for as long as possible, until the DAC stage.

When converting from digital to analogue – and thus dealing with tangible things rather than mathematical perfection – the data has to become fixed point. Almost all digital mixers are fixed point and of course coming out of your audio interface down an analogue cable will require a DAC, and it’s here that those sacrifices have to be made – to an extent. TJ tells me:

Let’s have a quick reality check. In a modern-day digital mixer, you’re looking at about 32 bits, not 10 bits. This means that the canvas is now 4,000,000,000 pixels wide. CD is 16 bits, or 65536 pixels wide. In other words, you can attenuate from full scale down by a factor of 16 bits = -96dB before you get to CD quality, which would be so quiet that it’s basically approaching the noise floor anyway. So, in terms of the signal that you can actually represent, this hypothetical 32-bit fixed point mixer really has no trouble covering the required dynamic range.”

So when it comes to dynamic range,  as long as we have a decent DAC we’re okay from this end – especially if we use the 16bit headroom that CD provides as a baseline.

I HAVE THE POWER

What is it that makes things loud, though? Power. The thing is, there isn’t really a standard for how loud things are actually supposed to be – in the DJ world, at least. Consider the standard’s forever been in flux, with not only different outputs on turntable cartridges but also an infinitely different level coming out of each record, and you begin to realise both how much easier you have it as a digital DJ (and by ‘it’ I mean adjusting mix levels) and how important the DJ mixer’s job has traditionally been when it comes to gain.

Dylan Wood clears up the loudness issue here:

“The maximum RMS voltage at the output is what you get if the DAC is outputting a full scale signal, this is basically how “hot” the device is.  The signal comes from the DAC and is then amplified to achieve the desired output voltage. There is no widely adhered to standard for this output voltage.  Traditional consumer terms and labels on hardware are things like +4dBu or -10dBu.  For example if you were to equate these to voltages +4dBu = 1.22 volts RMS, -10dBu = somewhere in the order of 100’s of millivolts.

Most modern DJ CD players though output around 2 volts RMS though so the “standards” that people talk about just really aren’t used.  Most modern interfaces and mixers and designed to output somewhere between 2 and 4 volts RMS.  Most modern digital mixers handle input voltage of around 4 volts.”

As you can see, there’s no standard output level for audio devices – but that in itself isn’t really a problem. Dylan outlines a side effect, though:

Companies keep building louder gadgets to out do each other so if you build something that is to professional audio standards DJ’s think it’s too quiet because they have to adjust the gain on their mixer.  It’s not dissimilar to the “loudness wars” that people talk about with audio mastering. In some ways devices being too loud can be worse because if the output gain is digital then you are actually losing quality when you turn it down.”

And that’s corroborated by TJ, who raises one more point:

“The incremental increases that we’re seeing in the output level of prosumer-level DJ soundcards (as opposed to studio converters worth thousands) is more or less down to marketing. A ‘player’ device – like a CDJ or soundcard – has no need to output a signal level hotter than anyone else, because it’s being plugged into a mixer with a gain control. It gets more complicated if you’re mixing “in the box” since then the soundcard has to somehow pretend to be a mixer and therefore ‘fake’ the kind of headroom you get with a real, 240v-powered box – namely, 15 to 25 dBu – but that’s another kettle of fish. Lack of headroom is simply one of the inherent issues with mixing inside a computer.”

The more power a device can kick out, the stronger its signal to noise ratio can be (but, the more distortion is introduced). As Dylan says above, amplification is done after the DAC stage, so the fidelity of the audio isn’t intrinsically linked to the amount of volts a device pushes out, but as its decibel level is essentially a scale upon which the limits of its dynamic range can be pinned upon, when it comes to a mixer, power is important. After all, a professional DJ mixer may well have a 240v power supply – a 5 volt USB connection just won’t be able to keep up.

DON’T HIT THE RED..?

If we’ve debunked any notion of ‘standards’ when it comes to levels, exactly what is the mysterious 0 on the level meter that we’re told to stick to in DJing 101? Well, if 0dB were to equal the full scale for decibel output, anything above 0 would clip, as the device would be unable to accuractely transcribe the audio that landed outside its boundaries. In reality, manufacturers build in a safety zone of headroom to allow for normal usage at just outside the recommended parameters, and the better quality the mixer (and more power it uses) the more it can give this safety zone without affecting normal operating limits. TJ explains:

“Analog mixers might start to soft-saturate before they hit the top of the meter, but only quite subtly. Digital mixers will typically not noticeably distort until they hit their rated maximum, which could even be past the end of the meter (actually, in the case of the DJM800 I think there’s something like two more extra red LEDs of headroom, more on the DJM900)”

However, we end up almost coming full circle as the next thing we need to be going into, perhaps a club PA system, needs to be able to handle that loud an input. There’s no point pushing individual channels so hard you can’t properly use the level meters if you’re going to squeeze the master output, so it’s best to use that 0 as your guide.

 FLOATING FUTURE

The very top flight of mixers, such as the Rane Sixty Eight (actually at this point, maybe only the Sixty Eight), are starting to incorporate floating point audio into their digital innards. This means that there’s not only all the advantages of floating point at the post-ADC stages of the signal chain, including the ability for clipping to be avoided at no cost at any stage of the mixer’s signal chain, but potentially audio can be sent via digital connection so that the only conversion that happens at all is the master channel’s DAC stage. As for what next? Dylan speculates…

“Hopefully in future we will be able to use more digital connections to keep it all a bit simpler!   It’d be really cool to see an all digital floating point signal path all the way to the amplifiers in the PA, right now it only goes as far as the mixers output.” 

Phew, we got a bit technical there for a moment! Hopefully where the two worlds of fidelity and volume meet is a little clearer now. We’ll take another look at things soon and expand upon some of the points we touched upon today, like in the box mixing. Please, let us know what you’d like to get a better understanding of so we can plan future articles!

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  • Sfkim44

    I’ve been trying to get VCI400 and heard that it’s output level is not high enough.

    So i’ve been doing some research and found out difference between dBV, V, and dBu units used to mark output levels. regarding the VCI 400 it saynorminal output:0 dBV (1.0V)max output+10dBV (3.0V), (at LINE IN 1/2, MIC IN 1/2 in “Direct” mode)+5dBV (1.7V), (on playback of 1kHz, 0dB normalised signal)Now the questions are:1. for 3.0V, is that mean it only line-in and mic-in will be max output of 3.0V? if that’s true. for the just playing files from the computer, max output is 1.7V?2. when they say V, is that mean Vmax? Vrms? Vpp? I am guessing Vrms.3. when i convert 10dBV to Vrms it comes out to be 3.2 Vrms.. I don’t know why they are saying 3.0V… and when I convert 5dBV it comes out to be 1.8Vrms. I guess I need to just focus on the 5dBV since that’s what I am guessing music playing from the computer will be depended on?4. looking at most of the professional mixers the max output is 4Vrms. It goes up to 6Vrms. When i convert a competitor controller kontrol S4’s 13 dBu to V it comes out to be 3.5Vrms and I’ve seen people use s4 in a club settings. So my ultimate question is that how does most people set up the output level at clubs or gigs? I understand that they don’t set it up near max and like to have headroom when they set up. My concern is that if most professional level output level is very high then what happens if the norm is(lets just assume) to set up at 2~2.5V? then max output level of VCI400’s 1.7V won’t work if you are performing in a gig where you have to go between 2 guys and they have set it up high. By reading this article it is recommanded to set it up around 0dBV thus you have a headroom. Is this norm amont professional DJs? or do DJ usually set it up a bit high to get louder?

  • Phaserjunkie

    I just want to point out to everyone who runs a PA. Don’t compare based on wattage. For example Razehell42 said “I do sound for a few parties a month, running a few thousand watts.” Yeah, thats cool, it pushes through some 1000+ watts. But your sub could only hit a little above 30hz. Still won’t be able to drive spikes through peoples chests, if you know what I mean. I just don’t want everyone comparing systems based on watts. It means nothing.

    • Emmett Wesolowski

      Excision runs 100,000 watts that will drive a spike through steel.

    • Emmett Wesolowski

      Excision runs 100,000 watts that will drive a spike through steel.

  • TJ Hertz

    to be honest, in practical terms, most of this is fairly inconsequential as long as you adhere to the following mantra:

    RUN EVERY DEVICE AT ITS NORMAL OPERATING LEVEL

    that means adjusting the internal gain in traktor so you’re a few dB below clipping, adjusting your mixer gains so that you’re hovering around 0dB or a few dB over per channel, adjusting your master gain so your master meter is hovering around 0dB or a few dB over, and letting the sound guy do the rest.

    my point was simply that DJ mixers have a lot of headroom, so you can push them well over 0dB without distortion. that doesn’t mean that you necessarily *should*. you should definitely avoid redlining (i.e. so loud that every LED is lit) wherever possible, for a number of reasons, not least because the meters don’t give you any information about how loud you’re playing when all the LEDs are simply on ALL THE TIME.

  • MOYMA

    Razehell42 has it spot on. Its all about the litte guy being on the fat guys shoulders. A lot of clubs in UK dont put enough care into the sound quality. The places I have played in Europe, they cared. Melkweg Amsterdam had a great sound system, best sound for Hiphop i have heard at a gig.

  • Delgado

    Whoa pretty technical article but very interesting. Also glad to see that my mixer is the only one using floating point technology. That 68 just keeps getting better and better!

  • Max

    A full article on gain control and how to manage to keep the level of different sources even in your mix, whether its vinyl, CDJ or computer, its pretty easy to get lost with all the different formats and differences in volumes. Something that goes further than “check the meter”, That would be greatly appreciated 😉

  • Max

    A full article on gain control and how to manage to keep the level of different sources even in your mix, whether its vinyl, CDJ or computer, its pretty easy to get lost with all the different formats and differences in volumes. Something that goes further than “check the meter”, That would be greatly appreciated 😉

  • Lewis Fisher

    serato have the worst sounding sound card according to Tony Andrews of Funktion One who are regarded by many as the best for club soundsytems . In a recent lecture he highlight’s the flaws of modern DJ software and hardware. Serato has the worst sounding sound card and traktor has issues with its software. You need to switch certain features off to get the best sound. He gets sent all the DJ hardware and software to analyse from the manufactures who use his results as a bench mark.

     http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/lectures/tony-andrews–keep-the-signal-chain

  • Lewis Fisher

    serato have the worst sounding sound card according to Tony Andrews of Funktion One who are regarded by many as the best for club soundsytems . In a recent lecture he highlight’s the flaws of modern DJ software and hardware. Serato has the worst sounding sound card and traktor has issues with its software. You need to switch certain features off to get the best sound. He gets sent all the DJ hardware and software to analyse from the manufactures who use his results as a bench mark.

     http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/lectures/tony-andrews–keep-the-signal-chain

  • Lewis Fisher

    serato have the worst sounding sound card according to Tony Andrews of Funktion One who are regarded by many as the best for club soundsytems . In a recent lecture he highlight’s the flaws of modern DJ software and hardware. Serato has the worst sounding sound card and traktor has issues with its software. You need to switch certain features off to get the best sound. He gets sent all the DJ hardware and software to analyse from the manufactures who use his results as a bench mark.

     http://www.redbullmusicacademy.com/lectures/tony-andrews–keep-the-signal-chain

  • Jonas

    First of all you guys rock! This blog is fantastic especially since it also talks so much about sound quality and the technical side behind good sound (mastering and this article right here for example). After having read your article on mastering and now this there’s still one big question in my head: Isn’t the shift of the industry towards mixing samples (thinking about Live here but also the somewhat sample oriented Traktor 2) contrary to wanting to achieve better sound when performaning? I mean you take parts of songs and just throw em in one mix. And no matter how well the original song was mastered doesn’t mixing together a bunch of parts from songs just totally destroy the whole mastering? Or did I get that wrong? Would be interesting if you guys wrote about that and possibly also how you can get the best sound when putting together samples in live for example. Thanks for all the interesting articles!

  • Jonas

    First of all you guys rock! This blog is fantastic especially since it also talks so much about sound quality and the technical side behind good sound (mastering and this article right here for example). After having read your article on mastering and now this there’s still one big question in my head: Isn’t the shift of the industry towards mixing samples (thinking about Live here but also the somewhat sample oriented Traktor 2) contrary to wanting to achieve better sound when performaning? I mean you take parts of songs and just throw em in one mix. And no matter how well the original song was mastered doesn’t mixing together a bunch of parts from songs just totally destroy the whole mastering? Or did I get that wrong? Would be interesting if you guys wrote about that and possibly also how you can get the best sound when putting together samples in live for example. Thanks for all the interesting articles!

    • Zac Kyoti

      Well, it certainly changes the overall sonic impression to mix and match samples. But worrying about it “destroying” the mastering is kinda like worrying that we mix two records together at all. The excitement of mixing comes directly from the fact that we are changing the sonic characteristics, and is exactly what we are after. Sound is really flexible, and taking a (mastered) sound and putting it in a new context just means that we need to balance and/or remaster the new output. That’s all academic though. In practice: balance, eq, use ears, enjoy, done.

      • Jonas

        guess you’re right 🙂 That’s a good thought. Thank you 🙂

      • Chris Cartledge

        Great question Jonas, great answer Zac!

  • Joseph Chang

    it’s good to see more of these technical articles, more interesting and everyone learns something :]

  • Joseph Chang

    it’s good to see more of these technical articles, more interesting and everyone learns something :]

  • Narf

    GREAT article.  please don’t apologize for getting technical…more stuff like this will be welcomed

  • Narf

    GREAT article.  please don’t apologize for getting technical…more stuff like this will be welcomed

  • Narf

    GREAT article.  please don’t apologize for getting technical…more stuff like this will be welcomed

  • Narf

    GREAT article.  please don’t apologize for getting technical…more stuff like this will be welcomed

  • Bryce Muzzy

    This is definitely one of favorite articles I’ve read here; a good blend of
    technical and simple prose.  Very insightful stuff from the talking
    heads too

  • Bryce Muzzy

    This is definitely one of favorite articles I’ve read here; a good blend of
    technical and simple prose.  Very insightful stuff from the talking
    heads too

  • Anthony Woodruffe

    So what is regarded as loud?
    When our ears start to bleed or something that’s a bit loader than we can talk without shouting. If there is one thing I really do not like is going into a club as a DJ who is used to loud music and thinking F*** me this is loud. The EU has a regulation of 95dB @ 20m. So if you’re in a European club and the DJ is distorting because he’s hit the limiter by turning everything up to the max and it’s not loud enough for you, this could be a few things, from the limiter being active thus reducing the levels, through to your ears ‘closing up’ due to the excessive noise.
    However let’s just make one thing clear; at 90dB ear damage starts to occur after prolonged exposure. 95dB in perceived loudness, is 50% louder than 90dB.
    If you set your gain so the PFL hits 0dB and have the channel fader and master-out set to max, you will get a completely clear signal. This will also give you the headroom for the peaks in the track where only marginal clipping, almost virtually noticeable to the ear will occur.  It means that if the PA outputs a constant 95dB  @ 20m then the sporadic and momentary peaks could be higher than 100dB.

    I other words when dealing with digital signals it’s paramount you don’t clip the signal. In traktor for example, although there is a master-out limiter you can activate, you do not want to let that level meter go into the red. Use a lower output to the mixer and use the mixers gain to boost the signal to the 0dB level.

    • Mistermr

      Gain is just adding artificial sound, it’s good practice to avoid gain at all. Set everything else, then use gain if necessary, but just remember because it’s artificial, distortion WILL happen. Either or I’m right or the “gain” knobs are incorrectly labeled, because that’s what gain is.

      • Anthony Woodruffe

        Increasing gain is a lesser of 2 evils in when dealing with DAC. It’s far better to increase a non-distorted digital source, which will end with a fraction of distortion (barely audible to the human ear). than to cut a clipped/distorted digital source, which will end with a track with minimal dynamics if a digital limiter has been added to the master level (Traktor) and audible distortion.
        Distortion happens to any amplified sound. It’s unavoidable the trick or the ‘art’ is to have as little total harmonic distortion as possible.
        i.e. non-clipping audio levels and good PA-system that’s not running ‘hot’.

      • Anthony Woodruffe

        Increasing gain is a lesser of 2 evils in when dealing with DAC. It’s far better to increase a non-distorted digital source, which will end with a fraction of distortion (barely audible to the human ear). than to cut a clipped/distorted digital source, which will end with a track with minimal dynamics if a digital limiter has been added to the master level (Traktor) and audible distortion.
        Distortion happens to any amplified sound. It’s unavoidable the trick or the ‘art’ is to have as little total harmonic distortion as possible.
        i.e. non-clipping audio levels and good PA-system that’s not running ‘hot’.

      • Anthony Woodruffe

        Increasing gain is a lesser of 2 evils in when dealing with DAC. It’s far better to increase a non-distorted digital source, which will end with a fraction of distortion (barely audible to the human ear). than to cut a clipped/distorted digital source, which will end with a track with minimal dynamics if a digital limiter has been added to the master level (Traktor) and audible distortion.
        Distortion happens to any amplified sound. It’s unavoidable the trick or the ‘art’ is to have as little total harmonic distortion as possible.
        i.e. non-clipping audio levels and good PA-system that’s not running ‘hot’.

      • Anthony Woodruffe

        Increasing gain is a lesser of 2 evils in when dealing with DAC. It’s far better to increase a non-distorted digital source, which will end with a fraction of distortion (barely audible to the human ear). than to cut a clipped/distorted digital source, which will end with a track with minimal dynamics if a digital limiter has been added to the master level (Traktor) and audible distortion.
        Distortion happens to any amplified sound. It’s unavoidable the trick or the ‘art’ is to have as little total harmonic distortion as possible.
        i.e. non-clipping audio levels and good PA-system that’s not running ‘hot’.

  • Razehell42

    I do sound for a few parties a month, running a few thousand watts.
    I dont care. If you red line after I warn you the first time, I kicking you off my PA.
    I dont care if your on a djm800 and you got the head room!
    The way I try to explain it,
    If your signal is clipping, when I try to turn you up my console clips right away.
    If your signal is level, I can turn you up on my PA higher before you start to clip(on my console).

    Why use the whimpy muscles of your mixers preamp to make your self sound louder, My PA has much larger muscles!  Its like a little guy trying to put a fat guy on his shoulders, it should be the other way around.

    • K-sea

      DJ’s try to over compensate for their lack of skills by pushing the signals through the roof.

  • annnnnnonononon

    its all a trade off between quality and cost, head room is found in every piece of gear that can amplify (expand the signal) if you want it to be louder from the mixer you need a better amp with its own head room and representation of the signal (sound). At the end of the day use your ears and hear what sounds best. too many times have i been to a club where the dj has maxed out the mixer when the house should really be turning up the PA/amp

  • Matthias Duyck

    I’m getting kind off confused about this part: “Companies keep building louder gadgets to out do each other so if you build something that is to professional audio standards DJ’s think it’s too quiet because they have to adjust the gain on their mixer.  It’s not dissimilar to the “loudness wars” that people talk about with audio mastering. In some ways devices being too loud can be worse because if the output gain is digital then you are actually losing quality when you turn it down.”  since from earlier reading I thought it was better to turn down the digital gain (inside of traktor) and to turn the analog mixer gain up. Or is there something like a sweet spot and how do I find that? I’m using traktor pro a maya44 usb soundcard and an analog 4ch mixer… 
    Anyone? 

  • Matthias Duyck

    I’m getting kind off confused about this part: “Companies keep building louder gadgets to out do each other so if you build something that is to professional audio standards DJ’s think it’s too quiet because they have to adjust the gain on their mixer.  It’s not dissimilar to the “loudness wars” that people talk about with audio mastering. In some ways devices being too loud can be worse because if the output gain is digital then you are actually losing quality when you turn it down.”  since from earlier reading I thought it was better to turn down the digital gain (inside of traktor) and to turn the analog mixer gain up. Or is there something like a sweet spot and how do I find that? I’m using traktor pro a maya44 usb soundcard and an analog 4ch mixer… 
    Anyone? 

    • Tom

      Any digital gain is ok as long as it does not clip. (And as long as it is not really quiet so that (analog) noise in the connection between sound card and mixer would become noticeable – but thiat’s really unlikely to happen)

      • Matthias Duyck

        Thanks for clearing things out. I used to play with the digital gain way up and had a lot of clipping but didn’t know why it sounded bad so I’m very happy to know how it’s done.

    • Tom

      Any digital gain is ok as long as it does not clip. (And as long as it is not really quiet so that (analog) noise in the connection between sound card and mixer would become noticeable – but thiat’s really unlikely to happen)

  • DJ Ivo-But-Not

    That is one great explanation, but in terms of “distortion”, I do not agree with the  statement about the Pioneer range of mixers. But the conclusion is right: if we want to use digital mixers, we need every single conection to be digital, and floating point processing as a standart. Until then, I preffer analog. 

    p.s. Guilty of possession of Korg Zero 4… and Yamaha 01V…

  • Rg Tb

    Just glanced over the blog entry–will read carefully during my lunch break 🙂

    I wanted to say real quick that I’m really happy to see DJTT cover these issues. imo, it’s quite important to build awareness of them among DJs.

  • Rg Tb

    Just glanced over the blog entry–will read carefully during my lunch break 🙂

    I wanted to say real quick that I’m really happy to see DJTT cover these issues. imo, it’s quite important to build awareness of them among DJs.